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12.25.2011
Transcript
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[Editor's notes are in square brackets. Texting acronyms are explained the first time they're used.] [10:00] Flashing Merlin: hi queen  Queen Bluestar [10:00] Queen Bluestar: Hello, Happy Christmas [10:01] Flashing Merlin: and a cool Yule to you too! [10:01] Queen Bluestar: bearing in mind if it were any other 'religious' special day no one would bat an eye to state it [10:01] Queen Bluestar: nice green everywhere  Gamma-ray Bubbles [10:02] Gamma-ray bubbles: Bubbles of Energy Are Found in Galaxy By DENNIS OVERBYE Published: November 9, 2010 A group of scientists working with data from NASA\rquote s Fermi Gamma-Ray Space Telescope said Tuesday that they had discovered two bubbles of energy erupting from the center of the Milky Way galaxy. The bubbles, they said at a news conference and in a paper to be published Wednesday in The Astrophysical Journal, extend 25,000 light years up and down from each side of the galaxy and contain the energy equivalent to 100,000 supernova explosions.... The source of the bubbles is a mystery. One possibility is that they are fueled by a wave of star births and deaths at the center of the galaxy. Another option is a gigantic belch from the black hole known to reside... at the center of the Milky Way.... " Wow," said David Spergel, an astrophysicist at Princeton who was not involved in the work.... [10:02] Queen Bluestar: v [very] cool [10:02] Queen Bluestar: I want one [10:03] Flashing Merlin: a gamma ray bubble? [10:03] Queen Bluestar: this n [in] local chat, you see it too? [10:03] Flashing Merlin: Yes, it's from the illustration on the wall behind you [10:03] Queen Bluestar: oho cool [10:04] Flashing Merlin: quite amazing, all that we don't understand yet! [10:04] Queen Bluestar: very [10:05] Queen Bluestar: I don't want to know it all [10:06] Flashing Merlin: even if I could know it all, I'd never remember it all [10:06] Queen Bluestar: because the resources and focus needed to gather ALL...would fatally tip the balance against ..living in moments which is all that we all have to hold [10:07] Flashing Merlin: interesting point, btw [by the way] I like your outfit [10:08] Flashing Merlin: Our first topic: are creative people eccentric? [10:13] Queen Bluestar: ty:)  Queen Bluestar [10:13] Queen Bluestar: could look at the reverse....are eccentrics...creatives [10:13] Queen Bluestar: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150527487723465&set=a.146378783464.135586.129446698464&type=1&theater [10:14] Queen Bluestar: says it all [10:14] Flashing Merlin: The Scientific American article assumes they are, and theorizes that "disinhibition" allows creative thought and makes for eccentricities. [10:14] Queen Bluestar: amongst eccentrics Life is normal [10:14] Queen Bluestar: who would actually REFERENCE their life style against the moronics of the masses? [10:15] Queen Bluestar: surely that is ...statistics? [10:15] Queen Bluestar: the smaller numbers who could be accounted 'eccentric' etc [10:16] Queen Bluestar: I am an inventor, and Brander. [10:16] Flashing Merlin: cool [10:16] Queen Bluestar: that is my personal interest  Queen Bluestar [10:16] Queen Bluestar: I write and read..backwards and upside down...fluently [10:16] Flashing Merlin: like Leonardo? [10:16] Queen Bluestar: I consider it a positive form of dyslexia [10:17] Queen Bluestar: many do...its not rare [10:17] Queen Bluestar: my father = dominant left hand, mother dominant right....I have best of both I think [10:17] Queen Bluestar: must stimulate the brain differently [10:17] Queen Bluestar: anyhow...what do yo think of the propostion? [10:18] Flashing Merlin: "Eccentricity" is a value judgement. At one time people who thought the Earth was round were eccentrics [10:19] Queen Bluestar: indeed [10:19] Queen Bluestar: doesn't it mean ...away from centre ...or angled away from centre point? [10:19] Flashing Merlin: Yes, I think that's it exactly [10:20] Queen Bluestar: thus a self fulfilled nomenc [nomenclature] [10:20] Flashing Merlin: and the center always moves [10:20] Queen Bluestar: everything moves....around me [10:20] Queen Bluestar: so I am at once centre and eccentric [10:20] Flashing Merlin: OK, we've resolved that question, next will the "god-particle" be found next year?  Queen Bluestar [10:21] Queen Bluestar: THAT could spark a world war [10:21] Queen Bluestar: (hopefully) [10:21] Flashing Merlin: how so? [10:22] Queen Bluestar: cannot see/touch/apprehend 'god' in any form acc [according] to ....islam [10:22] Queen Bluestar: would be perfect excuse to let loose [10:22] Queen Bluestar: I'm sure they have thought of that [10:23] Flashing Merlin: ah I see your point, but I haven't heard of any compliants about the effort so far? [10:23] Queen Bluestar: I seem to think of things most do not:) [10:24] Queen Bluestar: hehe that sounds.....etc...but stuff it, I do or I dont [10:24] Queen Bluestar: what would yu like to see of it? [10:24] Flashing Merlin: perhaps others have missed the true gravity of the question  Queen Bluestar [10:24] Queen Bluestar: it is more than Science...that is for sure [10:25] Flashing Merlin: I'm skeptical. Not so much that a particle will be found, but that it will actually explain very much [10:25] Queen Bluestar: occurances are not vacuum packed [10:26] Queen Bluestar: climbing over themselves to look over its shoulder.... the sum of Lifes meaning is ...NEXT [10:26] Queen Bluestar: which substance is the constant of....CHANGE [10:26] Flashing Merlin: don't think they'll find the answer to that in a super collider! [10:27] Queen Bluestar: probably staring thm in the face just inside the office microwave oven:)) [10:28] Flashing Merlin: The math doesn't predict the exact mass of the Higgs particle, so find any new particle and you can call it the god-particle [10:29] Queen Bluestar: can it be brought into relative existance if no mass? [10:29] Queen Bluestar: just asking [10:30] Flashing Merlin: Where they're now looking for that particle is at a mass about 100x the mass of a proton, so clearly this doesn't explain gavity by it self, they have to bring in the Higgs field idea [10:30] Flashing Merlin: The Higgs is supposed to explain mass, so a particle with no mass wouldn't do [10:31] Queen Bluestar: kind of like ExistancePhobic [10:32] Flashing Merlin: While everything in nature is supposed to be explainable in math terms, not everything which can be postulated in math has to exist in reality, e.g. imaginary numbers [10:32] Queen Bluestar: cannot be 'within' the realm of existence (so to speak) [10:33] Queen Bluestar: here is a small piece of thinking: 'Hierarchies' nestle 'Potential' between their strictures...which secures ALL Life....AGAINST: The Leap Of Faith. [10:33] Queen Bluestar: my thinking that is [10:34] Queen Bluestar: yes/no? [10:34] Flashing Merlin: There is a Higgs, but it's shy? [10:34] Queen Bluestar: coy [10:34] Queen Bluestar: perhaps come at it backwards:) [10:34] Queen Bluestar: not looking, thus seeing  Flashing Merlin [10:35] Flashing Merlin: I've always liked Occam's razor: the theory which requires the least assumptions is probably the most correct [10:35] Flashing Merlin: "Faith" requires major assumptions, so it doesn't do well against other science theories [10:36] Queen Bluestar: or at all...one hopes [10:37] Flashing Merlin: With just the two of us, we seem to solve these question much more quickly that with a larger group, so what do you think of "robotic wardens?" [10:38] Queen Bluestar: 'they' do not teach 'battling assumptions' in schools....too much like awkening the masses for comfort, I'd guess...even if such a miracle could occur [10:38] Queen Bluestar: which is to say...? RW? [Real World?] [10:38] Queen Bluestar: England here btw [10:39] Flashing Merlin: Philosophy is one subject never taught in public schools- too dangerous! [10:39] Queen Bluestar: I gathered:) I am toooooo often at the brunt of Mob wouldbe violence for saying unsayabe things as it is:) [10:40] Queen Bluestar: we in England are being surpressed by American style Rights laws now [10:40] Flashing Merlin: NYC here, btw. I know what you mean about mob violence. Wisdom is also knowing when not to speak your mind [10:41] Queen Bluestar: Life is thrusting forward ...never the less [10:41] Queen Bluestar: I do not bow to 'received' wisdom [10:41] Queen Bluestar: for ITS sake [10:42] Flashing Merlin: And in Korea, it's moving toward robotic wardens patrolling prisons. But that seems to violate Asimov's first law of robotics. [10:42] Flashing Merlin: Are we on a slippery slope there? [10:43] Queen Bluestar: no [10:43] Flashing Merlin: do tell [10:43] Queen Bluestar: fantasy novels are with the best of wills....not over us [10:43] Queen Bluestar: I am not under the spell of any writer or famous being [10:44] Queen Bluestar: and I thnk you think tank scientists and engineers know what they are about because they are producing A Product [10:44] Queen Bluestar: young think tank  Flashing Merlin, Queen Bluestar [10:45] Flashing Merlin: Asimov said that if one were to build robots, the first law they must be programmed with is not to harm humans. Seemed like good advice. Do we want to program them to imprison us? [Editor's note: Creativity Farshore suggested by phone that the appropriate use of robotic wardens should be to make sure robots who have been imprisoned are treated humanely.] [10:45] Queen Bluestar: I see the Mind....as that energy ...permitted to function ...by the on off swicth of the bio-electrical energies of nerves and the brain [10:46] Queen Bluestar: that there is a 'static' which holds it ...rather like the old valve TVs where the white dot took a small time to leave the screen [10:46] Flashing Merlin: Ah, but will machines eventually reach and exceed the capability of the mind, as Kurzweil predicts? [10:47] Queen Bluestar: THEY are not imprisoning us...any programme is driving them to accomplish a task FOR their owner [10:47] Queen Bluestar: no they will not. [Editor's note: Nuclear reactors are supposedly programmed to provide safe, clean, energy for us. When they melt down, it doesn't work out well for us. Hence the fact that robots are programmed to "to accomplish a task FOR their owner" is not particularly reassuring.] [10:47] Queen Bluestar: neither will time travel arise [10:47] Queen Bluestar: other than sending inanimate objects into the future... [10:47] Queen Bluestar: 'apparently' [10:48] Flashing Merlin: I agree time travel is not going to happen irl [in real life], but Neuromancer suggests a world where computers may gain the upper hand over mankind. That seems possible. [10:49] Queen Bluestar: possible is not: likely...however [10:49] Queen Bluestar: it is possible that everest could invert....BUT [10:50] Flashing Merlin: I expect we should do what we can to make computers taking over less likely, which is why robotic wardens seem like a slippery slope [10:51] Queen Bluestar: but rw would be single or small number functioning....v useful [10:51] Queen Bluestar: except they are unlikely to run faster than criminals so would require taser power over distance [Editor's note: If only predator drones were armed with tasers to stun their target so s/he could be arrested, and tried. Instead they're armed with rockets intended for summary executions. Bluestar seems unaware how well armed robots already are, and how easily capable they are of out running her.] [10:53] Flashing Merlin: In Neuromancer the computer outsmarts the people who are supposed to control it. Because computers control more and more of our world and are being linked together, they don't have to "run" to get ahead of us [10:53] Queen Bluestar: there is no 'we' though....all of these feats are possessions of science or business labs...'we' have nil say until development has been achieved [10:53] Flashing Merlin: hi masumimichi  Queen Bluestar [10:53] Queen Bluestar: computers CANNOT intuit [10:54] Queen Bluestar: CANNOT read multiple sutleties...inflections of voice, body, expressions.... [10:54] Queen Bluestar: they will never do it or be a force because of having that [10:54] Queen Bluestar: subtleties [10:54] Queen Bluestar: :)) [10:55] Queen Bluestar: they will remain LUMPEN shifters or sorters or counters [10:55] Queen Bluestar: or surgical tools etc [10:55] Flashing Merlin: IBM has a computer that can beat humans at Jeopardy [10:55] Queen Bluestar: fine  Queen Bluestar [10:56] Queen Bluestar: if jeopardy is the meaning of Human life...or even his breakfast [10:56] Queen Bluestar: reality is beyond games....an infinity beyond [10:57] Queen Bluestar: why not better ...engineer...superior Humans [10:57] Queen Bluestar: there is a ready carcass to mould [10:57] Flashing Merlin: No doubt, but computer thinking is modeled on human thinking, and IBM is getting better at it  masumimichi, Queen Bluestar [10:58] Queen Bluestar: devise the best elements of robotics to meld to human life [10:58] Queen Bluestar: yes [10:58] Queen Bluestar: to benefit from subtleties I say one needs a form of conscious mind [10:58] masumimichi: they've developed greater capacities to imitate or to mathematize human activities [10:58] Queen Bluestar: imitation is not Life [10:58] Flashing Merlin: That is the ideal, Queen. But as Murphy's law predicts, if anything can go wrong, it will [10:59] masumimichi: it's not life, but it could approximate a similacrum of life [10:59] Queen Bluestar: I prefer to think...be incorrect than wrong.....wrong is more emotive....suggestive of dangers not proven [11:00] Queen Bluestar: approximate....is not....Life [11:00] Flashing Merlin: yes, masumimichi, true. We're debating if there is a danger to computers becoming smarter than us [11:00] Queen Bluestar: ever  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin [11:00] masumimichi: what do you mean by smarter, though? [11:01] Queen Bluestar: but..what possible human actions could they then achieve that wasnt mere slog to us? [11:02] masumimichi: hm slog? [11:02] Flashing Merlin: In Gibson's Neuromancer, the computers gain control at the end [11:02] masumimichi: well they could perform delicate surgeries [11:02] masumimichi: and plan how to accomplish complex tasks [11:02] masumimichi: and strategize all sorts of situations that humans very poorly strategize [11:02] Flashing Merlin: In Korea, they're being programmed to act as wardens in prisons [11:02] Queen Bluestar: A book is not the world nor any state of Living outside of the mind [11:03] Flashing Merlin: Some books have made accurate predictions [11:03] Queen Bluestar: Korea is a cultural prison....is there any change to it by mechanical workers?  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin, Queen Bluestar [11:04] Queen Bluestar: but that is not certainty....lucky guesses come at a similar ratee, I suspect [11:04] masumimichi: but if the properties we call smartness are merely chemical processes [11:04] Queen Bluestar: doesn't matter so much about the chemistry even...it is the ..expression [11:04] masumimichi: or the ability to analyze questions, or come up with solutions, rather than a property of nonphysical things, why couldnt' computers do as well [11:05] masumimichi: or better really [11:05] Queen Bluestar: what materially would regular life require which made it necessary to employ robots as a major theme of our existance? [11:06] masumimichi: well we screw up most things pretty badly [11:06] Flashing Merlin: IBM wants the computers that win at Jeopardy to solve medical problems and out think doctors next [11:06] Queen Bluestar: other than mindless toil and enless calculation or repetitive delicacy? [11:06] masumimichi: computers may not screw these things up [11:07] masumimichi: traffic patterns lead to all sorts of jams, and slowdowns-- [11:07] masumimichi: which human beings' analysis doesn't resolve [11:07] Queen Bluestar: doctors take much more than perfect actions...they must account for the UNIQUENESS of the individuals biology before them [11:07] masumimichi: whereas computer algorithms might lead to better solutions [11:07] masumimichi: engineering solutions  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin [11:08] Queen Bluestar: do yu think ANY country will pay for the level of complexity any computer or robot would demand to perform for the whole population? [11:08] Queen Bluestar: might...is not a good basis on whch to invest the wealth of nations [11:08] masumimichi: computers are beginning to do better than doctors in analyzing and diagnosing symptoms [11:09] Flashing Merlin: "Military intelligence" is already working on it Queen! [11:09] masumimichi: doctors are often unaware of syndromes, or prioritize ones they've encountered, and have all sorts of heuristic bias [11:09] Queen Bluestar: I am unsurprised...but military ops are not certainties either [11:09] Queen Bluestar: they do like their boys toys...I dont rely n their sense of proportion or self interest  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin [11:10] Queen Bluestar: got to get food together to take to friend:) [11:10] Queen Bluestar: militaries [11:10] Queen Bluestar: will sit here and catch rest of chat for later if thats ok?? [11:10] masumimichi: I don't rely on their rationalitiex [11:10] Flashing Merlin: OK, Queen, our time has run its course, thanx for coming! [11:10] Queen Bluestar: or tip me out [11:10] Queen Bluestar: ok and ty:)  masumimichi [11:11] Queen Bluestar: bye [11:11] Flashing Merlin: Nice meeting you Masumimichi [11:11] masumimichi: same here merlin [11:11] masumimichi: what group is this? [11:12] Flashing Merlin: and wishing you a cool Yule! [11:12] Flashing Merlin: ASCI - Art & Science Collaboration, Inc. We meet the last Sunday of the month. Usually we have a few more avatars. [11:13] masumimichi: oh-- same to you merlin [11:13] masumimichi: oh, ok [11:13] masumimichi: I'll look for it [11:13] masumimichi: your next meeting is in a month then? [11:14] Flashing Merlin: Yes, last Sunday in January  masumimichi [11:15] masumimichi: but you know how it is [11:15] Flashing Merlin: sure I do, never enough time for all I'd like to do [11:16] masumimichi: where do you live? [11:16] masumimichi: (just curious) [11:17] Flashing Merlin: NYC, and you? [11:17] masumimichi: same [11:17] Flashing Merlin: cool  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin [11:18] Flashing Merlin: yes, me too [11:18] masumimichi: ah-- great [11:18] masumimichi: do you have training in science, or are you mostly self-taught? [11:19] Flashing Merlin: So perhaps we've passed each other or will in rl. Started out in science and switched to art, so a bit of both [11:19] masumimichi: possibly at columbus circle... [11:20] Flashing Merlin: actually, I'm more likely to be found in Chelsea among the art galleries [11:20] masumimichi: I always plan to go-- but I never make it [11:21] masumimichi: I do have some free time for a while... [11:21] masumimichi: I guess I should take advantage of it [11:21] masumimichi: what galleries do you like? [11:22] Flashing Merlin: Bitforms, Postmasters, galleries that show work on the edge of art & science [11:22] masumimichi: I'm much more traditional and old fashioned in my taste at the moment [11:23] masumimichi: I should educate myself more in contemporaries trends, really [11:23] masumimichi: I like science too, but never studied it much [11:24] Flashing Merlin: you sound as if you have learned quite a bit though [11:24] masumimichi: I pick things up here and there [11:24] masumimichi: but it's quite superficial knowledge [11:25] Flashing Merlin: good. Well, I do need to get on with my Christmas day. Great talking! [11:25] masumimichi: nice talking  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin [11:25] masumimichi: (if it is really Christmas) [11:26] Flashing Merlin: really Christmas? Are you inclined to celebrate on the Eastern Orthodox date? [11:26] masumimichi: lol [11:26] masumimichi: no although I do celebrate hannukah [11:26] masumimichi: but it just doesn't seem at all like Christmas [11:27] masumimichi: somehow I'm not prepared [11:27] Flashing Merlin: I love the candles [11:27] masumimichi: me too [11:27] masumimichi: it's a great story, although probably not historically accurate [11:28] Flashing Merlin: agreed! I like the Yule story too. Those pagans knew how to party! bye for now.  masumimichi, Flashing Merlin
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