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Flash Light (Not posted much yet) Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 11 Location: New York City |
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:20 am Post subject: Atheism Is atheism a religion? Calum thinks not, but I believe that it is. Like every religion it is based on belief in an unprovable tenet which the followers never-the-less use to guide their lives. If atheism is a religion, then its god can best be described as not existing. Considering all the descriptions of gods embraced by polytheism, why should we judge the atheist's vision as less valid, or less entitled to be called a religion, albeit one based on a god whose supreme power is to not exist? _________________ http://www.Polytheism.org May the Gods be with us! Back to top |
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Calum (Guy Who Runs The Site) Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 273 Location: Outside of my head | Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: good point. i voted that atheism is a religion if you believe it is. i think macman (one of our ocassional posters here) is an atheist, but i'm not sure. not sure if he sees it as a religion either. we'll have to wait till he reads this and ask him! _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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X11 (I like this site) Joined: 12 Aug 2002 Posts: 77 Location: Aussieland |
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:18 pm Post subject: If it is then I am one, but its more of a mindset. Like Integrationalism . _________________ John's Blog | Stallman | openOpen | fuckMicrosoft | Void's BS Back to top |
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Calum (Guy Who Runs The Site) Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 273 Location: Outside of my head |
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:38 pm Post subject: is religion a mindset? or are mindsets religions? _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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glimmung (I feel like I've been here before!) Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 59 Location: USA |
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:24 pm Post subject: Atheism is not a religion, although it gets catagorized as such. The fundamental difference between Atheism and a religion is one of belief in a supernatural, high and mighty creator/god/pantheon of leaders, etc. An atheist does not believe such a thing exists. Plain and simple. Religion has one real truth (as Flash Light pointed out) that of being able to prove god does/does not exist. This is the defining point of an athiest. And Athiest does not believe that god exists. A religous person believes god exists. An atheist who believes in non-belief (So to say) is still religious, because for them atheism is a religious experience in and of itself, and these people are really agnostics. For the most part it is terminology. An atheist cannot reconcile the whole belief system, no matter what form the god takes. Religion is an act of belief, or a system derived from a belief. For an atheist the whole of life is never about reacting to a god. An atheist who acts in life as reaction to god, i.e they act a certain way becasue they feel a religious person would act another way, are not atheists, they have a belief system, and are therefore agnostics, because they have not really decided that they are atheist. An atheist takes their convictions of life from what they reason is right, based solely on their predjudices, and experience. It is not a belief system, there are no rituals to follow, and the ideals can and do change on a daily basis. And atheist who cannot change their mind or the opinion at a moments notice is religious because their ideals have turned into a belief system. _________________ Who is this God person anyway? - Douglas Adams Back to top |
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Peter (I feel like I've been here before!) Joined: 12 Dec 2002 Posts: 24 |
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:46 pm Post subject: the non-believers You have defined atheism as non-belief, but if atheists choose to follow an individual code of morality does that mean they are not religious? Back to top |
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Calum (Guy Who Runs The Site) Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 273 Location: Outside of my head |
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:38 pm Post subject: my thoughts about atheism at www.polytheism.org.uk/faq.html seem to be outdated. depending on what people say here, i might have to change my opinion about atheism. as i say though, most atheists are not totally non religious. _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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glimmung (I feel like I've been here before!) Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 59 Location: USA |
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:18 am Post subject: Re: the non-believers Peter wrote: You have defined atheism as non-belief, but if atheists choose to follow an individual code of morality does that mean they are not religious? My view on this is that that individual code has to be based on reasoning, experience, or some tangible idea that can be backed up. Other wise it is a belief, and should not be called atheism - rather agnostic, or some such other term, my vocabulary is letting me down here - sorry. Having reread my post I give the view that atheism should not be catagorised with religion, but atheism deals with the same issues, and has at its center the same basic problem, the proof / denial of the very existence of god/s, and as such I believe it is perfectly valid in a religious context, I do not mean to offer the view that atheism should not be involved in religious discussion, in fact it should be a part of any truly investigative religious discussion, because any open minded person has to accept the possability of god not actually existing. I should state that the views expressed are mine, and are nothing more than my personal definitions, which are subject to change of course Calum - I would venture to say that whilst an atheist is by definition nonreligious, they are seldom out of the discussion, in fact atheists often put forward views to challenge religious beliefs. And most true atheists have a bigger desire to investigate, challenge, discuss, research, etc. philosphical and religous ideas than most who are religious. _________________ Who is this God person anyway? - Douglas Adams Back to top |
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Calum (Guy Who Runs The Site) Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 273 Location: Outside of my head |
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:26 am Post subject: actually i think i stand by my comments on the faq page, anybody who has religious beliefs is not an atheist, just like there cannot be anything outside our universe, since the word 'universe' defines everything that exists. so a lot of people call themselves atheists but they have religious beliefs, so they are not atheists, and they probably aren't agnostics either (in fact i bet a lot of them are something similar to Integrational Polytheists! or at least polytheists or integrationalists of some kind!). a lof of people call themselves vegetarians who still eat fish and sometimes fowl but they are not vegetarians. you cannot always believe people who say they are something and then act in a way that betrays them as something else. (just look at 'christians' for instance! how many of them follow the teachings of christ?) _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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glimmung (I feel like I've been here before!) Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 59 Location: USA |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:30 pm Post subject: Calum wrote: so a lot of people call themselves atheists but they have religious beliefs, so they are not atheists, and they probably aren't agnostics either (in fact i bet a lot of them are something similar to Integrational Polytheists! or at least polytheists or integrationalists of some kind!) . I would have to really agree with you here. People often seem to call themselves something they are not. So the really interesting point is that this idea keeps coming up. It seems many atheists need the recognition of their atheism. After all most societies deride them. The US forces the pledge of allegiance which states that they put their trust in god, all the european societies have terms of a religious nature, and give special credence to those who believe in god, seperation of church and state exists in most democratic countries, which means that the church (and other religions - I have just lived in Christo-centric countries) is somehow above normal laws and controls. Whereas if you actually are an atheist you are catagorised into the land of wierdos, and strange people. So maybe under that conjecture atheists have a reason for constantly talking about the lack of religion. But I feel many atheists are just poeple who have not had the chance to get their beliefs truly organized, because they have been religated out of the conversation due to the level of bigotry most religions are wonderful at preserving. Anyway I think I have said enough on this subject. _________________ Who is this God person anyway? - Douglas Adams Back to top |
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Flash Light (Not posted much yet) Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 11 Location: New York City |
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:59 am Post subject: Utah Supreme Court Decision The Utah Supreme Court just handed down a ruling which seems to support the idea that atheism is a religion: they ruled that an atheist has a right to prayer. A lawsuit was brought by an atheist, Tom Snyder, who wanted to offer a prayer in which he begged deliverance "from the evil of forced religious worship now sought to be imposed upon the people by the actions of misguided, weak and stupid politicians." "The court ruled on Friday that if officials . . . wanted to pray during government-sponsered events, the opportunity must be accessible to all who ask." (The New York Times, 4/13/2003) _________________ http://www.Polytheism.org May the Gods be with us! Back to top |
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Calum (Guy Who Runs The Site) Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 273 Location: Outside of my head |
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:16 pm Post subject: the key issue here is, who was that person praying to? if an atheist prays and believes in it, then that person is no longer an atheist. it's like like ruling that a virgin has the right to have sex. fair enough, but once they have had sex, they are not a virgin regardless of how many laws you pass and how many times you say otherwise. what do you think? i think 'atheists' who want to have religious beliefs should admit to themselves that they are not atheists. _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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Flash Light (Not posted much yet) Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 11 Location: New York City |
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:31 am Post subject: Secular prayer Calum, I pray thee explain why you believe prayers can only be directed to gods. This atheist's prayers were answered, albeit by mortals. _________________ http://www.Polytheism.org May the Gods be with us! Back to top |
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Calum (Guy Who Runs The Site) Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 273 Location: Outside of my head |
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:45 am Post subject: yes? in that case why didn't he just email them or ring them up or send them a letter? unless the mortals who answered this person's prayer can say they heard the prayer, then i would personally say that if the prayer was heard and then answered then it would have to be by some supernatural force, working via mortals. then again, that's only my interpretation of it all, and now i look at it, i see there could be a lot of other ways round for it all to go. but one thing is common to all those ways, they all involve some sort of faith or belief in the para/supernormal. this can't really be called atheism i don't think, but of course i am not the world's final authority on such things. _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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Flash Light (Not posted much yet) Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 11 Location: New York City |
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:40 am Post subject: Atheist's prayers I agree that given more choices, some atheists might make a choice other than, "None of the above." As polytheists we have a mission to present people with the vast array of spiritual choices that are actually open to them, including the Integrational Polytheist choice, "All of the above." That said, let me return to the case at hand, and assume for the moment that this atheist is a true atheist, one who knowing all the choices, would still choose, "None of the above." E-mail wouldn't have served this atheist's purpose, which was to test whether atheists have a right to pray, only a prayer could do that. The mortal judges heard his prayer directly as part of the court testimony. Thus it is possible for the prayer to have worked without, "some sort of faith or belief in the para/supernormal". (Naturally, as polytheists, we don't rule out the possibility, but we cannot not assume it was necessary in this case where the words of the atheist's prayer alone could have moved the judges.) If you agree that oral prayer can effect listeners on a mortal level, and move them to action, perhaps you can see how atheism can function as a religion, albeit one based in the mortal plane. _________________ http://www.Polytheism.org May the Gods be with us! Back to top |
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Calum Guy Who Runs The Site Joined: 28 Jul 2002 Posts: 329 Location: Outside of my head |
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:54 pm Post subject:
yes, good point i suppose, you say he prayed to human beings, and they heard and answered. you know though, if he had lost the right to pray, that would have proven that an atheist's prayers were not answered! still, your analogy falls back on "prayer" simply meaning "asking for something", which i suppose is exactly what it means. in popular parlance though, we expect it only to apply to gods et c. interesting he should need to go to court to defend what is in effect his right to ask. still, it's a loophole because to pray to something, you need to believe in it, and the only way he's got away with being an atheist and praying is to pray to something that atheists are allowed to believe in, ie human beings. to me as a polytheist, it seems odd to me thinking about it that everybody believes in things like human beings, tables, buildings, the eiffel tower and the great barrier reef even though they haven't usually ever seen those things (or at least most people haven't seen most buildings, most tables, the eiffel tower et cetera), but they still find it odd to believe in things like the water spirits, the aboriginal spirits of the land, the norse gods et cetera, when those things are (in my opinion) just as real, and also have the qualification of most people having not seen them either. but now i'm kind of getting off topic... _________________ ’War is fun when you know you won’t die’ – Michael Moore Help save the rainforests Back to top |
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Flash Light I feel like I've been here before! Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 25 Location: New York City |
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 8:52 am Post subject: Was Buddha an atheist?
To return to the topic of the poll, I was speaking to a group of Buddhists the other day, and inquiring about Buddha's beliefs concerning the Hindu pantheon. The Buddhists pointed out to me that Buddha, in his quest for enlightenment, had "left the gods behind him." Although I had read Buddha's, "Four Noble Truths," and his, "Eightfold Path," I had never before been so struck by the fact that Buddha makes no mention of the gods in his most fundamental teachings. (Compare the "Ten Commandments," which start off with worship of Yahweh as demand number one.) Everyone seems to agree that Buddhism is a religion. What more compelling evidence can there be that a religion doesn't require belief in gods than to realize that Buddha was an atheist? _________________ http://www.Polytheism.org May the Gods be with us! Back to top |
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DjCarrad I feel like I've been here before! Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 38 Location: Aussie |
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:48 am Post subject:
just because Buddism is an atheist religion doesnt mean that atheism itself is a religion. buddism is a fromed religion with a set of rules governing it. atheism doesnt, apart from you dont believe in any god. _________________ GO UNTO http://djcarrad.tripod.com commanded DjCarrad, and the people did, and the world was good. "The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.' `But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' `Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic." --Douglas Adams, Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Back to top |
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Flash Light I feel like I've been here before! Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 25 Location: New York City |
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:20 am Post subject: Accepting the religion of atheists
DjCarrad, Once you concede, "Buddhism is an atheist religion," I believe you've lost this argument. You have thus agreed it is possible to have a religion which does not involve belief in, worship of, nor prayer to god(s). All prior objections to considering atheism a religion in this discussion were based on those principles. As to your suggestion that there are "no rules" to atheism, you've defeated yourself by adding "apart from you dont believe in any god." That is a MAJOR rule, clearly delineating atheism from all other religions, save Buddhism. However, it certainly isn't the only rule in atheism. I suggest you read the "sermons" of some of the "patron saints" of atheism, such as Baron von Holbach, Clarence Darrow, Bertrand Russell, A. J. Ayer, et al. From them you will learn that atheists take positions on the issues of deriving a moral system in the absence of divine fiat, i.e. how do you decide right from wrong if you don't have the answers written in the Bible, the Koran, or the Vedas, etc. With further research you will learn that atheists organize themselves into communities of like minded believers (visit http://www.SecularHumanism.org, http://www.nyHumanist.org etc.) and those communities have rules, just as do churches and temples. Unless someone comes up with another argument in this discussion, I believe Integrational Polytheists should agree to accept the beliefs of atheism as they do all other religious beliefs. (And it's about time, because some interesting posts in these forums come from atheists, so it seems unfair that we discriminate against their religion.) _________________ http://www.Polytheism.org May the Gods be with us! Back to top |
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